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	<title>Comments on: flexibility</title>
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		<title>By: renee (tesserae)</title>
		<link>http://www.shiveringnaked.org/?p=2345&#038;cpage=1#comment-4071</link>
		<dc:creator>renee (tesserae)</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 08 May 2009 02:17:30 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.shiveringnaked.org/?p=2345#comment-4071</guid>
		<description>@grace -- i think every other thing you said was negated when you mentioned being turned away by the group. I&#039;m far away and not part of the group, but I would NEVER want a baby in a group like that, and some part of you should have understood that.

i think you&#039;re bitter about a past grudge and trying to over-compensate by &quot;proving&quot; how much better you are, and how much you accomplish and self-sacrifice, but we all quite too clearly through that screen, hon.

cut the shit about telling others what to do.

cheerio!</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>@grace &#8212; i think every other thing you said was negated when you mentioned being turned away by the group. I&#8217;m far away and not part of the group, but I would NEVER want a baby in a group like that, and some part of you should have understood that.</p>
<p>i think you&#8217;re bitter about a past grudge and trying to over-compensate by &#8220;proving&#8221; how much better you are, and how much you accomplish and self-sacrifice, but we all quite too clearly through that screen, hon.</p>
<p>cut the shit about telling others what to do.</p>
<p>cheerio!</p>
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		<title>By: JAGA</title>
		<link>http://www.shiveringnaked.org/?p=2345&#038;cpage=1#comment-4069</link>
		<dc:creator>JAGA</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 06 May 2009 15:51:53 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.shiveringnaked.org/?p=2345#comment-4069</guid>
		<description>@ Grace

As a member of the AM group, I will add that I thought it was inappropriate to have a baby in a support group where intense emotions are often felt and memories and other deep topics are discussed.  I believe that babies hear things and even if they do not understand on the level we do, I strongly believe that what they hear does go into their subconscious.  Additionally, I didn&#039;t feel comfortable at all subjecting a child to such an environment where intense emotions and the energy in the room at times can be stressful due to the triggering content.  Of course not every group is like that, but usually at least one person&#039;s share is and at times the entire group is intense.  In my opinion, children of any age can pick up the feelings and energy in their surroundings and I just didn&#039;t feel comfortable having a baby there.  If you wanted to come alone that would have been perfectly fine with the group.

I realize that you said you really needed the support at the time.  I&#039;m sure you did and I&#039;m sure you didn&#039;t and couldn&#039;t leave your baby either.  However, I stand behind Myriad and the rest of the group members who felt that it wasn&#039;t appropriate or healthy for a baby or child to attend group with his or her parent.  This was my primary concern, but there were also other factors involving the logistics of any baby in an environment.  

Julie</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>@ Grace</p>
<p>As a member of the AM group, I will add that I thought it was inappropriate to have a baby in a support group where intense emotions are often felt and memories and other deep topics are discussed.  I believe that babies hear things and even if they do not understand on the level we do, I strongly believe that what they hear does go into their subconscious.  Additionally, I didn&#8217;t feel comfortable at all subjecting a child to such an environment where intense emotions and the energy in the room at times can be stressful due to the triggering content.  Of course not every group is like that, but usually at least one person&#8217;s share is and at times the entire group is intense.  In my opinion, children of any age can pick up the feelings and energy in their surroundings and I just didn&#8217;t feel comfortable having a baby there.  If you wanted to come alone that would have been perfectly fine with the group.</p>
<p>I realize that you said you really needed the support at the time.  I&#8217;m sure you did and I&#8217;m sure you didn&#8217;t and couldn&#8217;t leave your baby either.  However, I stand behind Myriad and the rest of the group members who felt that it wasn&#8217;t appropriate or healthy for a baby or child to attend group with his or her parent.  This was my primary concern, but there were also other factors involving the logistics of any baby in an environment.  </p>
<p>Julie</p>
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		<title>By: wandering sail</title>
		<link>http://www.shiveringnaked.org/?p=2345&#038;cpage=1#comment-4066</link>
		<dc:creator>wandering sail</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 05 May 2009 09:15:14 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.shiveringnaked.org/?p=2345#comment-4066</guid>
		<description>If you could you would just like anyone else. It is unfair that psychiatric disability to many means you are lazy or not trying hard enough. I get down on myself because I use to be able to work, keep up the house, take care of my child and socialize and now it takes every thing I have sometime to care for my child part time. But like you Myriad I have always had to work harder than others to get to the same place. Other people can&#039;t see that. If you were fatigued for anxious for what is seen as a OK reason ie. physical illness peoples eyes wouldn&#039;t glass over. 
I don&#039;t think that most people ask or need any accommodations for school so if needed I don&#039;t think it costs much in money or time to do this. 
I also don&#039;t think you can compare parenting and being able to do other things. I find that I can parent, not maybe as I would always like, but who does. When my son leaves many times all I can do is sleep, be overwhelmed, anxious. All the things I think I should be able to catch up on because I don&#039;t have my son I can&#039;t do. Some of them things I can do when he is with me. It baffles me. 

I think someone put it very well that I can parent part time and it is probably good for me but I have no more psychological reserve.

If I didn&#039;t have a child I don&#039;t think I would be doing even as well as I am. 

Myriad&#039;s you are doing much more than you were able to do in the past and you have to take care of your basic needs to be able to do anything else. It would be nice if instead of calling us lazy they tried to accommodate so we could contribute as much as we can. It is not like it is easy being disabled.

Keep working at it look at all the things you have already done and you weren&#039;t sure if you would be able. 

I think disableism and stigma especially of mental health problems is alive and well.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>If you could you would just like anyone else. It is unfair that psychiatric disability to many means you are lazy or not trying hard enough. I get down on myself because I use to be able to work, keep up the house, take care of my child and socialize and now it takes every thing I have sometime to care for my child part time. But like you Myriad I have always had to work harder than others to get to the same place. Other people can&#8217;t see that. If you were fatigued for anxious for what is seen as a OK reason ie. physical illness peoples eyes wouldn&#8217;t glass over.<br />
I don&#8217;t think that most people ask or need any accommodations for school so if needed I don&#8217;t think it costs much in money or time to do this.<br />
I also don&#8217;t think you can compare parenting and being able to do other things. I find that I can parent, not maybe as I would always like, but who does. When my son leaves many times all I can do is sleep, be overwhelmed, anxious. All the things I think I should be able to catch up on because I don&#8217;t have my son I can&#8217;t do. Some of them things I can do when he is with me. It baffles me. </p>
<p>I think someone put it very well that I can parent part time and it is probably good for me but I have no more psychological reserve.</p>
<p>If I didn&#8217;t have a child I don&#8217;t think I would be doing even as well as I am. </p>
<p>Myriad&#8217;s you are doing much more than you were able to do in the past and you have to take care of your basic needs to be able to do anything else. It would be nice if instead of calling us lazy they tried to accommodate so we could contribute as much as we can. It is not like it is easy being disabled.</p>
<p>Keep working at it look at all the things you have already done and you weren&#8217;t sure if you would be able. </p>
<p>I think disableism and stigma especially of mental health problems is alive and well.</p>
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		<title>By: lara</title>
		<link>http://www.shiveringnaked.org/?p=2345&#038;cpage=1#comment-4065</link>
		<dc:creator>lara</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 05 May 2009 06:08:53 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.shiveringnaked.org/?p=2345#comment-4065</guid>
		<description>bringing this back to the topic of the post, i think it&#039;s absolutely the behest of liberal institutions to address *all* of the needs of the communities they serve. what myriad requests here is not a massive output of human energy, but rather a simple change in policy regarding financial aid. some would argue that the ADA should address such needs. at base, the academy imagines itself as a civic institution that facilitates the flow of ideas and the training of the citizenry. to do so, it must acknowledge and address the differences in student populations. 

also, student services are not why tuition spikes have happened in the past decade-a growing administrative class is. salaries for mid-level staff have become significant financial burdens on higher ed institutions. also, the decline in public funding for higher ed has trickled down quickly to students, making the out-of-pocket costs bear the burden of financing higher ed rather than states and the federal government making education a fiscal priority. at any rate, it is ill-advised to blame students who need accommodations to gain an education for soaring tuition rates.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>bringing this back to the topic of the post, i think it&#8217;s absolutely the behest of liberal institutions to address *all* of the needs of the communities they serve. what myriad requests here is not a massive output of human energy, but rather a simple change in policy regarding financial aid. some would argue that the ADA should address such needs. at base, the academy imagines itself as a civic institution that facilitates the flow of ideas and the training of the citizenry. to do so, it must acknowledge and address the differences in student populations. </p>
<p>also, student services are not why tuition spikes have happened in the past decade-a growing administrative class is. salaries for mid-level staff have become significant financial burdens on higher ed institutions. also, the decline in public funding for higher ed has trickled down quickly to students, making the out-of-pocket costs bear the burden of financing higher ed rather than states and the federal government making education a fiscal priority. at any rate, it is ill-advised to blame students who need accommodations to gain an education for soaring tuition rates.</p>
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		<title>By: ATG</title>
		<link>http://www.shiveringnaked.org/?p=2345&#038;cpage=1#comment-4064</link>
		<dc:creator>ATG</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 05 May 2009 06:01:36 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.shiveringnaked.org/?p=2345#comment-4064</guid>
		<description>Oh, my dear myriad, thank you for having the words to speak against disableism. Everyone has a unique experience, you can&#039;t speak for me, and I can&#039;t speak for you, but that someone is speaking out the frustration, the rage, the injustice that goes on all the time in so many invisible ways, thank you. Thank you. And you know what? It DOES suck. A LOT. I hate that people might think you&#039;re lazy when you&#039;re working, like, a million times harder, you appreciate when you even can work all the more, and you wish to the Universe sometimes that other people could understand. I have a lot of experiences I wish I could tell people about, and maybe I&#039;ll be able to little by little, but dammit, your post gives me some hope.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Oh, my dear myriad, thank you for having the words to speak against disableism. Everyone has a unique experience, you can&#8217;t speak for me, and I can&#8217;t speak for you, but that someone is speaking out the frustration, the rage, the injustice that goes on all the time in so many invisible ways, thank you. Thank you. And you know what? It DOES suck. A LOT. I hate that people might think you&#8217;re lazy when you&#8217;re working, like, a million times harder, you appreciate when you even can work all the more, and you wish to the Universe sometimes that other people could understand. I have a lot of experiences I wish I could tell people about, and maybe I&#8217;ll be able to little by little, but dammit, your post gives me some hope.</p>
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		<title>By: myriad</title>
		<link>http://www.shiveringnaked.org/?p=2345&#038;cpage=1#comment-4063</link>
		<dc:creator>myriad</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 05 May 2009 05:33:25 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.shiveringnaked.org/?p=2345#comment-4063</guid>
		<description>Grace,
Yes, we talked about the idea with all the group members, and everyone agreed that it didn&#039;t feel right or appropriate to have a baby in group with us. People talk about memories and other very upsetting topics, so we did not think it would be good for a child, and additionally, group members did not feel it would continue to be a safe space for them. I think that is very different from arbitrarily rejecting someone, and it was not a personal decision alone.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Grace,<br />
Yes, we talked about the idea with all the group members, and everyone agreed that it didn&#8217;t feel right or appropriate to have a baby in group with us. People talk about memories and other very upsetting topics, so we did not think it would be good for a child, and additionally, group members did not feel it would continue to be a safe space for them. I think that is very different from arbitrarily rejecting someone, and it was not a personal decision alone.</p>
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		<title>By: Miriena</title>
		<link>http://www.shiveringnaked.org/?p=2345&#038;cpage=1#comment-4062</link>
		<dc:creator>Miriena</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 05 May 2009 03:43:16 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.shiveringnaked.org/?p=2345#comment-4062</guid>
		<description>I share a lot of similar thoughts about the program. I hate it that I&#039;m so much less fluent in the matters of programming and algorithms and shit than most other people. Oh, okay, so I *don&#039;t* have 5+ years of industry experience. SO? Maybe some people just need to get over this feeling of &quot;what fits me must fit you.&quot; I spend hours on things that take others fractions of that time. I pound away at a problem until I&#039;m ready to off myself, or until I get it working, and then life feels so great... For a few minutes.

I&#039;m not sure how I&#039;m going to handle work after graduation as well. I work now, a lot, I have ridiculous medication expenses and no prescription insurance, and without medication I&#039;m a wreck. But all of these &quot;jobs&quot; are part-time and if I have one of those days when I feel horrible and trapped and sick and suffocating and can&#039;t get out of bed and can&#039;t stop crying I can just take time off and no one will say anything. But... in the &quot;real job&quot; world that won&#039;t fly. I get so anxious over opening e-mail it&#039;s ridiculous. Most of the time I can&#039;t pick up the phone unless it&#039;s my parents or my husband. And I&#039;m always feeling sick, some days are just better than others, and there are hours of the day when nothing hurts. Coming to every class is a huge effort, always, and often I don&#039;t make it in. I&#039;m trying not to think of what happens when I&#039;m out of school and can&#039;t pay back the shit tons of money that I owe...

For now I&#039;ll just keep playing the game where I pretend like I know what&#039;s going on in classes, make stupid jokes in class and in response to someone being a snooty know it all, and try not to miss classes. Close my eyes, and start walking across the freeway that school is. Maybe I&#039;ll get lucky and get to the other side alive.

-hugs- you&#039;ll make it because you want to and because you&#039;re dedicated. The fact that you have to work harder than most other people to be where you are means you are strong, in ways many other people can&#039;t even imagine. There&#039;s no struggle more difficult that that which goes on within, but it&#039;s the hardest struggle for many others to understand. I guess I shouldn&#039;t be annoyed at people&#039;s lack of empathy... They aren&#039;t doing it on purpose, they just don&#039;t know.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I share a lot of similar thoughts about the program. I hate it that I&#8217;m so much less fluent in the matters of programming and algorithms and shit than most other people. Oh, okay, so I *don&#8217;t* have 5+ years of industry experience. SO? Maybe some people just need to get over this feeling of &#8220;what fits me must fit you.&#8221; I spend hours on things that take others fractions of that time. I pound away at a problem until I&#8217;m ready to off myself, or until I get it working, and then life feels so great&#8230; For a few minutes.</p>
<p>I&#8217;m not sure how I&#8217;m going to handle work after graduation as well. I work now, a lot, I have ridiculous medication expenses and no prescription insurance, and without medication I&#8217;m a wreck. But all of these &#8220;jobs&#8221; are part-time and if I have one of those days when I feel horrible and trapped and sick and suffocating and can&#8217;t get out of bed and can&#8217;t stop crying I can just take time off and no one will say anything. But&#8230; in the &#8220;real job&#8221; world that won&#8217;t fly. I get so anxious over opening e-mail it&#8217;s ridiculous. Most of the time I can&#8217;t pick up the phone unless it&#8217;s my parents or my husband. And I&#8217;m always feeling sick, some days are just better than others, and there are hours of the day when nothing hurts. Coming to every class is a huge effort, always, and often I don&#8217;t make it in. I&#8217;m trying not to think of what happens when I&#8217;m out of school and can&#8217;t pay back the shit tons of money that I owe&#8230;</p>
<p>For now I&#8217;ll just keep playing the game where I pretend like I know what&#8217;s going on in classes, make stupid jokes in class and in response to someone being a snooty know it all, and try not to miss classes. Close my eyes, and start walking across the freeway that school is. Maybe I&#8217;ll get lucky and get to the other side alive.</p>
<p>-hugs- you&#8217;ll make it because you want to and because you&#8217;re dedicated. The fact that you have to work harder than most other people to be where you are means you are strong, in ways many other people can&#8217;t even imagine. There&#8217;s no struggle more difficult that that which goes on within, but it&#8217;s the hardest struggle for many others to understand. I guess I shouldn&#8217;t be annoyed at people&#8217;s lack of empathy&#8230; They aren&#8217;t doing it on purpose, they just don&#8217;t know.</p>
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		<title>By: Grace</title>
		<link>http://www.shiveringnaked.org/?p=2345&#038;cpage=1#comment-4061</link>
		<dc:creator>Grace</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 05 May 2009 02:03:57 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.shiveringnaked.org/?p=2345#comment-4061</guid>
		<description>Maybe we had a different e-mail address - we have quite a few.  I know for a fact you turned us (Mia specifically)away because we had a nursing baby.  We really could have used the support at the time but now I&#039;m glad we didn&#039;t get involved.  You really should get your story straight though.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Maybe we had a different e-mail address &#8211; we have quite a few.  I know for a fact you turned us (Mia specifically)away because we had a nursing baby.  We really could have used the support at the time but now I&#8217;m glad we didn&#8217;t get involved.  You really should get your story straight though.</p>
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		<title>By: edges</title>
		<link>http://www.shiveringnaked.org/?p=2345&#038;cpage=1#comment-4060</link>
		<dc:creator>edges</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 04 May 2009 20:20:29 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.shiveringnaked.org/?p=2345#comment-4060</guid>
		<description>also, i am lazy.  and disabled.  and proud of it.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>also, i am lazy.  and disabled.  and proud of it.</p>
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		<title>By: edges</title>
		<link>http://www.shiveringnaked.org/?p=2345&#038;cpage=1#comment-4059</link>
		<dc:creator>edges</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 04 May 2009 20:18:16 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.shiveringnaked.org/?p=2345#comment-4059</guid>
		<description>(remembers the many times that they have told people to get over it)

you know, i was really functional for a long time.  and for me that was choosing &quot;what should be&quot; (i need to be going to school, taking care of my girlfriend, functioning) over &quot;what is&quot; (i am dying inside, running on empty, poisoning myself).  i was lucky enough to have that choice. i don&#039;t anymore, but that&#039;s neither here nor there.

and that was tough.  but you know what&#039;s tougher?  listening to myself.  allowing myself to be all the &quot;bad&quot; things i&#039;m not supposed to be.  at least for us.  that is so much harder.  and every time, i think, we&#039;d choose it the other way.  we&#039;d get over it, move on, and ignore all the little nagging snags until we broke down again, pretended it was unrelated, got back up, and started all over again.

and i guess i&#039;m saying this for 2 reasons.  one, i think that the idea that someone is &quot;choosing&quot; not to function is ... i mean if they could, wouldn&#039;t they?  and if by some miracle they can.  they can put it all away and kick those parts of themselves out, is that better?  for who?  do we owe it to somebody to be as functional as possible?  as detached and &quot;over&quot; our emotions as possible?

and for us, there has never been an &quot;over&quot;, just a &quot;later&quot; and a &quot;subtler&quot; and a million little cuts over time so you can&#039;t trace the source.

and this is all rambling but myriad you are, as always, inspiring to us in ways we want to grow.  or something.

love,
edges</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>(remembers the many times that they have told people to get over it)</p>
<p>you know, i was really functional for a long time.  and for me that was choosing &#8220;what should be&#8221; (i need to be going to school, taking care of my girlfriend, functioning) over &#8220;what is&#8221; (i am dying inside, running on empty, poisoning myself).  i was lucky enough to have that choice. i don&#8217;t anymore, but that&#8217;s neither here nor there.</p>
<p>and that was tough.  but you know what&#8217;s tougher?  listening to myself.  allowing myself to be all the &#8220;bad&#8221; things i&#8217;m not supposed to be.  at least for us.  that is so much harder.  and every time, i think, we&#8217;d choose it the other way.  we&#8217;d get over it, move on, and ignore all the little nagging snags until we broke down again, pretended it was unrelated, got back up, and started all over again.</p>
<p>and i guess i&#8217;m saying this for 2 reasons.  one, i think that the idea that someone is &#8220;choosing&#8221; not to function is &#8230; i mean if they could, wouldn&#8217;t they?  and if by some miracle they can.  they can put it all away and kick those parts of themselves out, is that better?  for who?  do we owe it to somebody to be as functional as possible?  as detached and &#8220;over&#8221; our emotions as possible?</p>
<p>and for us, there has never been an &#8220;over&#8221;, just a &#8220;later&#8221; and a &#8220;subtler&#8221; and a million little cuts over time so you can&#8217;t trace the source.</p>
<p>and this is all rambling but myriad you are, as always, inspiring to us in ways we want to grow.  or something.</p>
<p>love,<br />
edges</p>
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